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Interview with Bishop Bernardino Mandlate - April 2002

Q: How did you become involved with the debt campaign?
A: In my field of work I became involved with poor people and their issues, and became aware of their desperate need. I began asking why they have their problems, and found that economics and debt were key reasons.

Q: What has been the impact of the debt crisis on Mozambique?
A: Extreme poverty, to the extend that Government is unable even to provide teachers, let alone schools. Some churches tried to build schools, and still the Government could not afford to place teachers in these.
People walk 15 to 20 miles for a gallon of water, and the Government cannot provide basic wells for people.
People are dying of basic curable diseases, not because doctors don't know how to treat them but because there is a lack of medicines.

User fees for education were introduced, but even without them Government wouldn't be able to provide teachers. In some places churches started community schools, with parents taking the lead, but this was not a substitute for structured education. User fees operated in towns and cities, but schools were already full with classes of up to 80 children - how do you teach in these circumstances. There is virtually no formal teacher training.

Q: How aware are people in Mozambique of their country's debt situation?
A: Most people see their situation as one of general poverty, but we try to educate communities about debt and luckily sometimes get access to radio. We talk about debt in terms people can understand, explaining, for example, why maize imported from the USA is cheaper than home grown maize. In 1975 people saw that Mozambique was flooded by army trucks and tanks - all this came in when their was not enough money to pay for them and this led to the debt.

Q: Once people are educated about debt what happens then?
A: Some will go on protest marches, but most will talk to others about debt and help spread awareness. However, there are not so many channels for influence as in the UK. We have no constituency MPs, as people vote for parties who them appoint MPs from lists they have drawn up. It is difficult therefore for people to access and influence Government.

We have tried to encourage churches to warm to the issue and make representations on people's behalf to Government representatives at local level. We have no way of knowing, however, whether these representatives pass the message upwards. For the most part, it is only a few of us who are sufficiently educated and connected to access Government. We did manage to hold a workshop for MPs that was very well attended, and many of the MPs did not know about the debt. Since then a few have been very active and keep the issue alive in parliament. We do have a good ear in Government, as they are themselves troubled by the debt and the President has openly called for debt cancellation.

Q: How did conflict with the apartheid regime add to the debt, and how do Mozambiquans view debts which arose from this?
A: We are challenging odious debts - a lot of the military equipment from the conflict is now in disuse, but we are still paying for it. But I am not sure how do you account for odious debt and separate it from other debts.

Q: Much is made by the creditors of the Poverty Reduction Strategy Papers and the requirement that civil society groups are consulted. How involved are civil society groups in Mozambique in the PRSP process?
A: We opposed PRSPs from the outset. Government did not consult us and the World Bank/IMF did not call civil society to consult. Where the World Bank meet with groups they do not consult on real and immediate issues but ask, for example, where you would like Mozambique to be in ten years. PRSPs are approved in Washington and this waters down the process. Washington will never approve the radicalism of civil society. There is no room for civil society in the process. The Governments draw up PRSPs under time pressure and are generally not willing to consult.

Q: How might groups in Mozambique and in rich countries like Britain work together to empower each other in the campaign for debt cancellation?
A: Information sharing is very important. You may have better information about facts and policies in Mozambique than do ordinary Mozambiquans. Groups in Mozambique have the human stories of debt which you don't have. We can also suggest what you can do to help.

Q: Mozambique has reached completion point under the HIPC process - what has this meant for ordinary people?
A: Completion point has not meant much. It did not get translated into resources for the communities, but rather into paperwork.

Q: World Bank projections for Mozambique are very optimistic compared to past experience, and discount the possibility of further disasters like floods. How do you view this?
A: One of the diseases of the World Bank and IM is always to project a positive image of everything. Two years ago they would project a positive image of Argentina! Now in the case of Mozambique natural disasters are not taken into account. Floods in 2000 and 2001 have been followed by severe drought in 2002 which could last for years. People do not have buying power to see them through this period. Mozambique is hailed as a success story, but in the country you don't see this. We see the 'success' in retrenchments and job losses, and behind each lost job is five more dependants who are harmed. There are more poor people, but maybe now a small bourgeoisie have been created. They drive the latest models from Europe on roads full of potholes. World Banks and IMF projections are aspirational and not based reality - they are about presenting good reports to their share holders.

Q: Do you believe that rich creditors are genuine in their attempts to alleviate poverty through HIPC?
A: HIPC failed right from the start. One of the major mistakes was not taking into account the need to save resources in the HIPC countries. In Mozambique the debt that has been cancelled was absolutely unpayable. What we are left with is debt that can only be paid at the expense of meeting the needs of the people. HIPC is about keeping the money coming in. At international conferences all the talk is about poverty reduction and meeting the 2015 targets, but when debt cancellation is raised the creditors want to avoid the subject. The Monterray process included a page about debt which included the right kind of language, but this was watered down by the creditors. There is no political will to deal with debt.

Q: If Mozambique were to receive full debt cancellation tomorrow, how should the money released from this be used?
A: There should be two major priorities. You must invest in meeting the social needs of the poor such as health and education. But equally you must invest in job creation. If you don't create jobs you don't deal with poverty. What is the point of having the finest education system in the world if good jobs are not the end point.

Q: What does the future hold for Mozambique without further debt cancellation?
A: More and more poverty, degradation and conflict - perhaps another war. At the moment we are dying of AIDS and malaria, and Government have not got the resources to deal with this. Without cancellation there will be more death.